I'm getting a bit tired of the language debate in Quebec.
I feel a bit guilty saying it, because the neverending battle has become so central to the province's identity that it's almost like I can't call myself a true Québécois unless I have a spot on the front lines. What does it mean to be a Quebecer if not to constantly argue about French vs. English, federalism vs. sovereignty, Liberal vs. PQ/BQ?
The most popular post on this blog, by far, in terms of comments is a criticism I made in 2007 about anglo rights crusader Howard Galganov. The comment mark on that post just passed 500 (all of which I had to individually approve), and new comments are added every day. Discussion of the statements made in the post or of Galganov himself have long fallen by the wayside. The four participants who keep the thread going just yell at each other, call each other racist and compare each other to Hitler in their discussions of the great divide. I block those comments that go too far, but if I deleted those that I didn't think advanced the conversation enough, over 90% would disappear immediately. At this point, I'm just watching the counter go up, in awe about how much time people can waste trying to change the mind of someone who is obviously never going to agree with you.
Autre
I'm an anglophone. Even though I've lived in Quebec my entire life, I'm seen as the enemy. No different than the Rest of Canada. It's assumed that I'm just waiting for my chance to make it in Toronto or New York, and that I don't really belong here because I don't really want to be here. Though I love Quebec as much for its culture (which is inescapably intertwined with its language) as its politics (which is inescapably intertwined with language issues), because I use English more than French in my daily life I'm set aside from real Quebecers.
Once, in a conversation with some young francophone journalists, I was asked about my opinion on Quebec politics in a way that gave me the impression I was introducing these people to a culture they'd only read about. I felt like I was giving them a sociology lesson on what it's like to be an anglo Quebecer.
One of the things that was odd about the conversation is that it came a bit out of nowhere. People don't stop me in the street to debate politics. I've never been refused service at a commercial establishment on account of my language. Francophone bloggers link to me, and I link to them, with little regard to the fact that our posts are in different languages, unless the thing were talking about is language politics. Quebecers are more concerned with daily life, gossiping or getting laid than they are convincing others of their point of view on separation.
I got dragged into a brief debate about my positions on Bill 101 recently, and though I have serious issues with some of its provisions that seem more anti-English than pro-French (and the psychological factor and selective enforcement only exacerbate the anti-English sentiment), part of me wanted to scream out at one point: "I don't care!" I can read French signs fine. I can communicate fine in that language (just don't ask me to write in it for a living). In that sense, Bill 101 doesn't really affect me. Though I cringe at how much the government is spending on language enforcement rather than language education, I think there are far more pressing issues for it to deal with than reforming our language law.
Pure laine
I bring this up because of a couple of debates going on that really make me wonder where Quebec's priorities lie.
La Presse's André Pratte had to apologize on Friday for noting that Michael Sabia, the ex-Bell CEO who has just been named to head the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, is (a) not a Quebecer and (b) doesn't speak French very well. It seems he was wrong on both counts. Sabia has lived in Quebec for 16 years ("how long do you have to live in Montreal before you become a Quebecer?") and his French, while accented, is fine. He attributed his first error to "un détestable réflexe québécois" - namely that if you're anglo, you're not a Quebecer. Believe me, this is a big problem. It's not just in Quebec, of course. People, media and PR agencies all over Canada will look at someone with brown skin and assume they're an immigrant. In the U.S., if you're latino, it's assumed you're an illegal immigrant or the descendant of one.
I accept Pratte's apology, but he wasn't the only one to bring this up. Sabia needed to defend himself from an attack by Bernard Landry, saying he's now chosen to live in Quebec three times since 1993.
UPDATE: No, wait, La Presse has gone back to saying he doesn't speak French well enough for their liking.
Now we know why there are rules against political interference in the Caisse's affairs. If something as petty as province of birth is a political issue (and deemed more important than making money for Quebec pensioners) then who knows how many ways 125 MNAs could figure out to screw with the system and doom our finances in order to maintain political correctness.
As Martin Patriquin points out, "Quebec must be the only place in the world where it actually matters what language money speaks."
Not just money, but pucks.
Jeu de puissance
The other debate, which has just started, is over who will fill Guy Carbonneau's shoes as head coach of the Canadiens. For any of the other 29 NHL teams, the only criterion would be the ability to coach a team of players to a Stanley Cup victory. (Well, that and not being a child molester, hockey gambling addict or 9/11 terrorist, I guess.) But in Montreal, they want to add another: the ability to speak French. And because former Hamilton Bulldogs coach Don Lever is a prime candidate (he was promoted to Habs assistant coach when Carbonneau was fired), there's already discussion that, no matter how good a hockey coach he might be, he can't get the job because he won't be able to speak properly to the media and to fans. Even Bob Gainey, who speaks French fine but with a strong accent, isn't good enough for the people at RDS.
The Gazette had a little fun with that Saturday, suggesting some intensive training courses and giving a list of simple phrases for an anglo coach to learn.
This debate should come as no surprise. The same debate has been going on ever since Saku Koivu was promoted to be the Canadiens' captain. Patrick Lagacé complained about it when he was at the Journal (though he's softened his stance at La Presse - Lagacé the old softy disputes this in a comment below) in a column more notable in media circles for its hilarious follow-up. Of course, there are plenty of NHL players who don't speak a word of English, but nobody complains about that. After all, their job is to play hockey, not to give speeches. But, in defence of this particular point, there aren't any NHL captains who can't at least carry on a conversation in the language of Gary Bettman.
And then there's debate any time you see a trade, a call-up, a healthy scratch, or even a line-change which alters the makeup of the team to make it less francophone. It doesn't matter what Guillaume Latendresse, Maxim Lapierre or Mathieu Dandenault's skills are. What matters is that they can be interviewed in French on RDS during intermission, and therefore they must be on the team and in the lineup. For these people, a Patrice Brisebois is more valuable than an Andrei Markov, and certainly more than a Mike Komisarek.
Fans can demand these things. It's their right. And Canadiens fans aren't exactly known for their logic or cool-headedness anyway. And it's the government's right to demand that the head of the Caisse is a Quebec-born francophone who watches Star Académie.
Priorités
But when you say that language and nationality is more important than skill, you can't complain when you don't get results compared to others. You can't complain that the Caisse is losing more money than other pension funds when you passed over a qualified anglophone for a less qualified francophone for the job. You can't complain that the Canadiens failed to bring home their expected 25th Stanley Cup when you cut the field of head coach candidates to less than half of what it was so that RDS viewers don't feel uncomfortable.
In the United States, the military is mocked because it fires gay Arabic translators even when it's in desperate need of them. We make fun of the Americans because they put what you are above what you know, to their own disadvantage.
Sometimes, I wonder if Quebec is any better.
Except, I'm tired of debating the point. So I'm just going to hit "publish" and move on to something more interesting.
UPDATE: More discussion of this on Lagacé's blog, which also talks about Simons's opposition to that stupid OQLF sticker campaign.
Jean, Well your answer speaks again for itself. As you said: "You want to live here and not be bothered to learn french, and want everyone to think like you (money first).
Every country in the world has a less than perfect tolerance for minorities that stubbornly refuse to accept their minority status, who do not integrate fully and try to impose their way of life upon others exactly like you guys are doing right now. "
Given CANADA is majority ENGLISH.. what the hell are YOU bleating about? What... that you still want CANADA and NON francophones... to kiss your bigoted ass some more? For what? For something from 1867 that happened in Manitoba? What are you - from another planet or what? And don't presume for a moment - what I speak - or how many languages I speak - or whether or not I hold money. All of that is none of your business - and by bringing that up - your arrogance is loud and clear.
Again, Get out already. You are in Canada!! Go do what you and your bigot colleagues have been yapping about for 35 years!! Go live in your own country... where the MAJORITY language will be French.
The NON francophone MAJORITY of Greater Montreal etc... will be very happy to see you go!!
And it's great that you noticed that Marc... (who in the past - got upset because I 'dared' compare the Nazi regime to the PQ one.. said he "didn't like it" ! Hello???) didn't say peep about the one province Bloc... that the ROC is paying dearly for.. For what.. a Party dedicated to the destruction of Canada!!! Time they got the hell out too... and like NOW! It makes me sick to know MY TAX dollars are paying for a party that's bent on destroying MY COUNTRY!! That's super nuts!
Chris, don't worry about Goodwin's law.. from Marc. He sent me that bull a few months ago. Scroll back and read my reply. I guess Marc is having a hard time... understanding Goodwins's law; so maybe it has to be made clear again.
To didi, Chris:
I have a big problem with people making gross hyperbole on message boards and I will always call you out on it. Have any of us anglos ever been jailed for speaking English on the street? Has the OLF ever exterminated any anglos - or put them through forced labor? I'd like to hear the answer from you on that. Godwin's law is not BS. ANY online discussion that becomes emotional and passionate REAGRDLESS of the subject matter - someone is GUARANTEED to bring up Hiter and/or Nazis. It NEVER fails.
If you think I will ever buy your crap that Quebec 2009 = Germany 1937, forget it! That's a nutbar argument at its finest.
You miss the point entirely Marc. I suggest you go and do some homework... and take a look at HOW the NAZI Party started!!! Exactly, the same bloody way the PQ started with its illegal language laws; pitting one segment of society against one another... making one segment of society superior to the other.. discriminating against one segment of society... one special segment... non francophones; closing schools, institutions; services... And I suggest you take a look at the 'common news stories back when the Nazi party was justifying ... its discriminatory 'new laws' then compare them with news stories that the PQ used. They are EXATLY the same:
I'll leave you with Clifford Lincoln speech to MNA's before he resigned in disgust:
Documents on the Controversy Surrounding the Language of Commercial Signs in Quebec (Bill 178) December 1988
Debates in the National Assembly
[December 20, 1988]
M. Clifford Lincoln,
Minister of Environment and Member for Nelligan,
Liberal Party.
[translation; Mr. Lincoln stated that he was born in Mauritius where French and English cultures live side-by-side as in Quebec. When he first came to Canada, he lived in British Columbia but he did not feel comfortable because he missed French culture, so he had come to Quebec]
[…] "Individual freedoms, the respect for the weak within society, for minorities, that is the essential creed of any liberal party.
[…]
"I have a profound attachment to Quebec; I know it is one that is different from yours who, for most of you, were born here. I understand that your attachment runs deep, into generations of several hundred years; but I want to tell you that in my own way I also love Quebec. It is my land as it is yours. I have chosen to live here, and I have chosen to be grateful to Quebec where I was welcomed with such warmth and generosity.
[…]
"The issue here is not an issue of signs, it is not an issue of anglophones and francophones, it is a societal issue, one that strikes into the deepest political commitment, that is to say how we conceive freedoms, individual rights and fundamental rights in a society. It is not a question of signs in black, white, pink or green, but it is an issue of the right of an individual to put something on a sign if that is his desire.
[…]
"Yes, those who have lost the right to post signs had a right that was fundamental, had freedom of expression; this was demonstrated by successive judgements of the Superior court, the Appeal court and, lastly, of the Supreme Court. These have said: yes we think that the French language, as the member for Gouin has stated, is in danger and vulnerable, but, despite that, we do not think that it justifies restricting freedom of expression, a fundamental right. Let us make an accommodation by which the French language, threatened and vulnerable, would be preponderant but without restricting the right of others.
"Now, we have applied a notwithstanding clause and this distresses me because this runs contrary to my personal commitment to say we have liberty but, for some reasons, whatever the reasons, we restrict it, subtract from it, withdraw from it.
[…]
[In English]
"In my belief, rights are rights are rights. There is no such think as inside rights and outside rights. No such thing as right for the tall and rights for the short. No such thing as rights for the front and rights for the back, or rights for East and rights for West. Rights are rights and will always be rights. There are no partial rights. Rights are fundamental rights. Rights are links in a chain of fundamental values that bind all individuals in a society that wants to be equitable, and just, and fair. Rights are bridges that unite people in a society through a set of fundamental values, and the minute you deny those rights, you withdraw that bridge, and create a gap between members of that society by denying those fundamental rights that bind them together.
"Rights are that delicate balance that equates the chances of people in a society, so that there is an equation between the rich and the poor, between the powerful and the weak, between the majorities and the minorities, between the State and the individual. Whoever tampers with a very delicate machinery of equity and justice in a society, which are expressed through rights, sets in motion a chain of events which someone more audacious may tamper with even more. That chain of events could be disastrous for a society whose beliefs are based on a sense of equity and justice for all.
"All of us are human beings first. We are not francophone, anglophone, rich, poor, weak and strong, first, we are human beings with rights. And for me, I will fight until my last breath for the right of some person to do something that society says he has that right to do and, in that case, that person, be it English or French or Chinese or whatever, has that right to paint that sign on the exterior of his building, and I do not think that it should be denied.
[…]
[translation]
"I would have preferred fundamentally, - I say this in all sincerity-, that everything would remain as before rather than to do something that is humiliating and say: inside everything is permitted, but, outside, do not post signs because this injures us. I do not think that this is what francophones believe. I do realise that security, and the threat that has become so firmly anchored in the perception of francophones, make it so that it is believed that the French face of Quebec will disappear if posting signs in English was permitted.
"I think differently, but I profoundly respect your opinions. What I do not accept is that this right is removed in an arbitrary fashion. I believe, along with the judges of the Supreme Court, that the linguistic face of Quebec must reflect the reality of Quebec. The reality of the face of Quebec is in great majority francophone. Chicoutimi will never change. Montreal, in its main role, will not change. However, there are places where anglophones live. They too have the right to have their language outside somewhere, so as to feel well in their skin.
[…]
In concluding, I would like to tell you that despite this very sad decision that I will take today, I remain first and above all fundamentally attached to my ideals as a Liberal. I will stay as a member of the Liberal caucus, and I also wish to continue as a member of this Parliament because, in my way, I too am a Québécois attached very deeply to this land. This year was a very difficult one for me. My wife was buried in Quebec; it is the greatest tribute that I can render to Quebec. Quebec will continue to be a land that will unite people, not divide them. We must continue to work together, to seek mechanisms, and after the tearing apart of this vote, and everything else that has happened here, I hope that we can begin to try working solutions together […].
Note from the translator: following the adoption of Bill 178, three anglophone cabinet ministers resigned from the government and, eventually, from the National Assembly. These resignations were to protest the adoption of Bill 178. The ministers resigning were: Herbert Marx, Clifford Lincoln and Richard French. Anglophone discontent with the Bourassa Liberal government was also expressed by the establishment, shortly thereafter, of the Equality Party. This essentially anglophone party elected four candidates in the provincial elections of 1989. It is estimated that where the fielded candidates, in essentially anglophone and allophone areas of Quebec, the Equality Party received between 70-78% of the anglophone vote.
We have big problems with coherence, here.
Hugo has gone beyond jumping the shark here with his nazi references, so it is pointless to discuss with someone whose plane of reality is seriously gone orthogonal. And his family did not make imperial policy, so it’s useless to say how “good” or “bad” they were; they were still the instrument of a very evil thing, an empire.
As for Didi, well, the british north america act of 1867 said that language is solely a provincial jurisdiction, so there is no basis in saying that just because Canada is majority english, that Québec should be bilingual. Since the supreme court of Canada agrees with that, talking about it just just pissing in a violin and as useful as putting ice skates on a 747. It just shows that Didi only wants to be spared to learn french. Ain’t gonna happen, pal.
Clifford Lincoln should have sat as an independant, the I could have had respect for him. But the Liberal Party Of Canada makes me vomit. Alas, that's another issue. I've been reading/posting on message boards since the 80s - I just can't respect anyone who proudly plays the Nazi card. Unless, of course, that's the topic being discussed.
"every country"
But Jean, you are not a country!! just a province in another country which you despise.
But Jean,
Anglos have learn't french in Quebec (over 80% I understand)...So what is the problem. It's only a language of little significance that will soon go the way of its latin ancestor. Good thing you know english going forward, Jean, you will need more of it and less french as in this blog. Where most of you comments are in english. YOU HAVE BEEN ASSIMILATED JEAN. What is the option, to be a silly unilingual franco in a country that is 90% anglo or North America which is 99% anglo. Et bonne chance avec ca.
330 million anglos , 6 million francos (who are speaking less french (joual) going forward)...Do you want to be in the parade or have the tires roll over top of you. How much money do you want us to waste on this ridiculous enterprise... I am sure you don't care as you and your buddies don't contribute much to the fiscal equation.
Its just a matter of time as no amount of silly OLF, Law 101 or other discriminatory laws will have any effect in time. It's over. Now, go have a nice warm bowl of poutine and think of how things could have been with Canada as a totally french (uggh) country. Too bad you lost the war.
"It just shows that Didi only wants to be spared to learn french. Ain’t gonna happen, pal."
Has nothing to do with learning french which isn't that difficult. It's about the fact that you use language as a ruse to hide your "pure laine" entitlements. Again, how many anglos in the Quebec civil service. What has Hugo been talking about with the CDP.. he seems to be conversant in french from what I gather.
You and your lot are bigots Jean. Look in the mirror for once and see the reality.
Yes, Jean, you are the real bigots, not those in the ROC, not the anglos in Quebec who experience discrimination and repression from the likes of you.
You always talk about anglos and french when over 80% in Quebec are conversant in french and still you harp on the GD language issue. Get over it..you have forced them to lean a language that is in demise worldwide for what purpose. And the reward, continued discrimination.
Get a life.
Actually, it is english that is doomed. When the US goes under, which is going to be pretty soon (how can’t you go under, with unrecoverable debt and an irreversible trade deficit?), the usefulness of english will quickly vanish, within 3-4 generations. There will be several regional languages, of which french will be one particularly sought after for the abundant litterature and scientific documentation available, and it’s similarity to spanish, which boasts a pretty large following, thanks to South (and central) America. (My new upstairs neighbour is a mexican – it’s pretty funny to hear him talk joual with a heavy mexican accent…)
English will be remembered as an imperialist, mercantile language. 20 after being liberated from the soviet yoke, which eastern european countries have a significant number of russian-speaking people? Not much; probably just the slavic countries (Serbia, Bulgaria). So after 3-4 generations, english will not be significantly “above” any other language like it currently is.
Whatever Jean is smokeing...I want some!
Let's leave the working hours issue out of this, I'm very happy consulting for less hours to have a life. Quebeckers have different values, let them appreciate them.
Just because someone is sitting at the office more hours doesn't necessarily mean they are more productive....they can be thinking about work while on a terrasse.
And no Jean, I understand things very well - in Belgium, the Wallonians (speaking French too) had the majority of money and power in Belgium up until the 50-60s (I went to http://www.vub.ac.be/ Flemish uni, subcollege http://www.vub.ac.be/) don't act as if it is only done by the Anglo ghetto (your back-asswards view of the english speaking world). When Flemings were tried in French, even if they didn't understand what they were being tried for, or their Universities not allowed to exist in Brussels, then the discrimination was clear. Very few understand how to 'rise above' the emotions, toi, t'es pris par la haine. Bitch-slap yourself out of it please, and get the other twits to realise the wake of your actions.
There is a pendulum of linguistic balance, and here it has swung so far that the goons can come out without any cop or any vigilant citizens to stop them from preaching intolerance and hatred against the English speaking minority. We live here too, and we're not leaving.
Who is the goon? The one who barges-in and demands that everyone else do like he does, or those who are pissed at the formers and who defend themselves against their onslaught???
Here’s an article about your ilk.
Beck: what I smoke is Grammaticus Anerroræ; you need some, obviously.
I am informing people about problems within Quebeck society on this blog b/c the Internet is about democracy and public interest. If it's not in the public interest to stop la magouille respecting the way our retirement money is gambled away by incompetence, then I really don't think you care about anyone else except for yourself (sovt. Buggy coding). I don't want this to happen anymore, and you're not going to stop me no matter how many Anglophobic (I've never lived outside of the province) comments/PQ songbook bs or by distracting everyone talking about other provinces, you try.
After four racial comments, not all directed at me (just the one about how easy it is to get rid of Anglos) - it was easy for the CNT to move forward with the complaint, that's why it was done in the Spring..it's taken this long to get to the mediation table b/c Cavesmen like you had to practically all hang themselves at the CDP first. Only a few are left, but their days are numbered...I shall be writing to the board shortly once there is progress made during mediation.
If this goes before a judge (90% of cases are solved in mediation), then I'll be subject to the risk of my case falling in front of someone from your faction in the govt. This is why I am proactively documenting the truth for everyone to see - not the truthiness that will come out of the distorted media. And believe me, the reserve gun I have waiting to fire is much bigger than your little mind can handle. They can tell me to cease and desist - and Fagstien can drop the post and repost easily enough without comments (or simply delete all mine, as I can do SSC)...and all will be settled, in the meantime, I have four technical reasons, many legal reasons, and support by means of the disgust of all Quebeckers (peu importe la langue) that our moneys are mismanaged to such an extent.
There so many things you fail to understand about English - but I'll leave you with a book to read by Churchill (hist. of the En. speaking peoples).
To most people in the world, English is a neutral language - because in reality it is made up of many languages (noticabley a very large dictionary incorporating much latin, greek, german, french...etc).
French is a great language, and will always remain so, but it's time as the Lingua Franca has passed. If Asians learn French in Vancouver, it is because they are very competitive and want to have an advantage on the Canadian job market – which is great, but they are not doing it because they think French will become Lingua Franca again. If some Canadians don't want to learn French (parfois pas motivant avec Chumps comme toi qui hurlent la haine) even if they live here or outside the province, that is their choice - b/c if you talk to most of them, by far the majority are somewhat proficient in another language...but you think it's all about hating the French, and cannot open your mind to the possibility that Spanish (amongst others) may be more important to those individuals.
You seem to have orthographic issues with Québec. Shall I start to have some with your name? (Given mine, I have no problem imagining many great ones specially for you).
For someone who purportedly never lived outside of here, you display an amazing amount of cluelessness about “here”.
Which tends to reinforce my point that anglo-saxons are culturally inhibited from understanding other cultures.
Stop right there. If what you said was remotely true, you would have not said anything about that purported litigation in public.
Therefore, you are either full of it, or just a fool that is shooting himself in the foot.
Not being english, I certainly do not pretend to be an expert on the subject; I merely report the results of several decades of personal experiences and observations.
There is no pretension for french to become so (again).
I don’t hate the english. I hate rhodesians (those who think they are better just because they are english and want to force everyone to be like them because they cannot demean themselves into becoming french), which is a normal reaction of normal people.
I don’t care what they speak; I care about their reaction towards french. If you don’t speak it, the least of courtesies would be to avoid making uninformed guesses about the french and spewing oxdung most often mirrored from media outlets.
Nothing new there - always misquoting me, trying to twist the words into a trap for fools. Whatever, discrimination breeds contempt, you Ilk article is nothing but judgemental garbage - you're not going to motivate some people who might be bad a languages in the first place also.
My work is done here people for now, I shall update the posting about discrimination shortly with the best of - interesting brainstorming session indeed.
Until there is a cease and disist then the comments should stay - it is public interest in the end that is most important.
We are subject to repetitive illegal attacks in the workplace, and are drowned in months of a painstaking wait for retribution, all for unwanted harassment, racial comments, blocking, scapegoating, from some incompetent judgmental, lacking self confidence enough to allow an Anglo win an argument, maitre-chez nous type. Wow, sorry, that's a bit long, but all required...
Wow, we have to give Jean some credit people, now he only admits he hates they BR supremacist types (hey, there's a snooty bunch in every crowd right?). btw When I put the never lived out of the province in brackets, I meant to say that you should live outside of distincktland for once. I've had the luck of living in five countries and visited over 35 (the the joy of the bank and not my balance) - when you see discrimination, it's obvious and unacceptable.
We might have actually got some of the extremists to understand they should not be so unbelievably judgmental when someone doesn't speak French in QC. Anglophones have lived here hundreds of years, and there might be a small percentage that doesn't know how to speak French and that is there choice, but that attitude which is the attempted guilt trip of the minority (projection) doesn't entitle the majority to eradicate English institutions or remove our rights to work in govt. institutions, to be allowed to be ourselves and sing in our own language on a holiday. If bilingualism isn't pushed, then how can there be an easy stepping stone for those who want to learn French slowly, perhaps completely overwhelmed already with that new university they just signed up to, or the new lifestyle that is thrust upon them….as well as to force them to learn another language or leave attitude. Even the shut up and leave attitude even after being bilingual for over ten years and not agreeing to ignore some pretty important laws (slightly higher on the scale than people passing on the right hand land, almost killing the granny trying to use the crosswalk on Laurier).
There are exceptions, and generalisations cannot be applied because it is not all black and white...that's where QC's majority has to patch it's buggy code, as well as not rewarding goons for bad behavior out of complacency.
Ah Jean - with the another twisting of my words. I say the Commonweath bled itself white to stop Nazis and Kaisers and you state the 'Hugo has gone beyond jumping the shark here with his nazi references, so it is pointless to discuss with someone'. Typical sovt. trying to use a Godwin's law scapegoat on me to distract from the real arguments: very funny, more buggy code....more of your 'now stop right there' stuff - are you getting on in years a bit?
Hello Hugh,
I see you're still trying to talk sense to - the anglo hating guys on this page. I admire your patience and perserverance - but I know it's a total waste of your time. They just keep blathering the same old - (since the 80's ... aka .. Marc) tired, lies and myths.. like wound up dolls.
By the way: It was Marc who used the Goodwin Law - threat. He tried it on me months ago.
Crying over spilled milk? No more cushy job for the bank/caisse/whatever? Pauvre petit pitou.
Discrimination is when some rhodesians move somewhere, and will not hire someone from the majority group because he does not speak rhodesian. But I guess that’s the kind that’s acceptable, because it’s been done for so long, eh?
When someone who lives in Québec (as opposed to tourist) does not speak french, it is a direct attack on us; the weapon for de-francisation of Canada has always been the anglicization through french-hostile immigration. This is why we eventually whipped out our ultimate weapon against this: la charte de la langue française.
So, we will be judgmental about that.
Nobody is trying to eradicate institutions; heck, we’re even paying for many of those! And if someone deliberately choses not to learn french, he should not complain about not being competent enough to work in government. As for singing, a little bunch of morons wailed louder and got taken seriously by a bunch of wimps (I personally have known Patrick Bourgeois and I find the is just as obnoxious as Galganov).
If bilingualism is pushed, there would be no incentive for the rhodesians to learn french, and they wouldn’t. Sink or swim! That’s the ticket!
There is ingratitude, true. Hitler is universally despised, but in the end, he is the guy who bankrupted the british empire, freeing the Planet from the biggest empire it had ever known… One of the worst empire, a mercantile empire that rotted the mind of people through merchants and traders. People can relate to soldiers, but merchants are apparently harmless, so they can corrupt, subvert and rot a country far more than an army.
Look who’s talking. The same guys who lament not being able to live in english in Québec.
"If bilingualism is pushed, there would be no incentive for the rhodesians to learn french, and they wouldn’t. Sink or swim! That’s the ticket!"
That is a ridiculous argument. The majority of my time in an English school had the majority of the students in an French immersion program where they learned specific courses in French as well as English. The majority of the students in the West Island are enrolled in the French Immersion program and are taught in both languages throughout the course of the day. In fact, most students would have probably gotten better marks if the same difficult class that they were learning in was taught in their own language rather than a language that they weren't qualified to answer the questions in. The school system which you seem to mock so easily in the West Island has the majority of the students learning French right from Kindergarden in these so-called english schools that you mock. The parents of these students and eventually the students once they reach high school and are more mature learn fast that it's important to learn a second language and to learn a language to which the majority speak in this province in order to communicate more freely between each language in order to get by.
Even in Cegep I was required to take 2 mandatory french classes in order to pass and move on towards University. The incentive is that there's a large french speaking province in this province and eventually you'll need French as a tool to communicate whether it be in a business atmosphere or socially amongst the people you meet. The same way that English should be taught in a French school so that francophones can have an easier time in a business environment should they choose to work or travel abroad and to socialize better with anglophone Quebecers and Canadians in other provinces should they choose to work or travel to places such as Ottawa or Toronto. It's a simple process. Learn each other's language and both will be better for it.
didi47: Another person who doesn't buy your BS about Quebec today being identical to Nazi Germany is my almost 90 year old, Jewish (but was never religious) grandfather who was a D-Dday Dodger fighting in the liberation of Italy in 1943-45. He still has most of his marbles and speaks about 20 words of French and has never had a single problem dealing with the provincial gov't. But I guess in your twisted mind he's also a "wind-up doll" spewing out lies. I have nothing more to say to you - good day.
Well there it is Jean. You finally admit you admire Hitler!
"There is ingratitude, true. Hitler is universally despised, but in the end, he is the guy who bankrupted the british empire, freeing the Planet from the biggest empire it had ever known… One of the worst empire, a mercantile empire that rotted the mind of people through merchants and traders. People can relate to soldiers, but merchants are apparently harmless, so they can corrupt, subvert and rot a country far more than an army."
And as for your "..same guy who lament.." comment.. - it too confirms your love for Hitler's English cleansing..
Like I said. SEPARATE - GO - GET OUT OF CANADA - NOW!!!!!!!!!
Marc,
I don't give a flying leap... if ALL your family, associates etc... disagree with me. Don't you get that yet?
Your opinion means NOTHING to me. You've shown your colors... and I rejected them 3 decades ago.
I was writing to someone else. Not you. Get it?
The problem is not those who go in immersion schools, but those who don’t, and insist upon ignoring the fact that Québec is french, and worse, tell immigrants that they have to be english.
Well, yes, but how come you don’t rail against the english who won’t learn french?
[quote]Well, yes, but how come you don’t rail against the english who won’t learn french?[/quote]
I have yet to meet an Anglophone who doesn't speak well-enough French in this province since the majority know both languages thanks to the implementation of French immersion schooling years ago that is a standard part of the education system. This is more than I can say for francophones in this province who can't put a word of English together since the French school system does a terrible job at teaching English.
The difference is that it's important to understand each other's language. The difference comes that I don't force my language on others or use restrictive laws and punishments on two languages that have just as much of a right to be here as the other. If you want to have an all French restaurant available with all French writing or an American hot dog stand with everything in English then i'm all for that as well. If someone asks to be served in their language as they're having difficulty, then you simply switch to their language of choice and help them make a decision since you should be efficient in both languages and you simply be understanding and courteous and help the individual if they don't understand something like any decent human being would do. There's no bitching or moaning that Eaton's needs to have the apostrophe removed or having stupid things like KFC changed to PFK. You leave things as they are and if a French business wants to have all their stuff in French then they have just as much of a right and can do as they please. Any group of people is free to do what they want with their own language and I don't think the world will collapse on top of itself as a result
That's the fundamental difference between you and I. I'm accepting of both languages in equal harmony in this province for the betterment of all the people who will have the knowledge of not only knowing two languages but being able to use both for any situation that encounters them in their lives. You simply want to push your agenda and knock away a language and a group of people that have just as much of a claim to this province as you do in order to pursue your own personal assimilation of a group of people and their language for your own selfish reasons.
All of this thread comes down to the title "La Francais Avant Tout". This stupid language debate will never end. Face it, french is on the decline both in Canada and worldwide. English, who knows what will happen. Most Canadians don't learn french because they quite frankly have no need to do so unless they want to work in the civil service (which BTW in most regions is a questionable requirement).
Quebec should separate as a great many Canadians have had it up to their ears with..
The continued bitching and whining by a province which contributes very little to the confederation.
The continued pandering of Ottawa to keep the "squeaky wheel" greased with money extracted from the pockets of others. Fiscal imbalance my ass. Dreamed up by the head parasites, Duceppe and company, and of course went along with by Flatulent Flaherty as he has no backbone and cannot say no. Ridiculous.
The continued pissing away of taxpayers money on programs we can't afford and are of nebulous value. (OLA, Radio Canada in the ROC).
Quebec should either stop bitching or leave. Enough is enough already.
"The problem is not those who go in immersion schools, but those who don’t, and insist upon ignoring the fact that Québec is french, and worse, tell immigrants that they have to be english"
Jean,
English children in Quebec have a schedule as such:
Elementary school - 60% French, 40% English or 50% French, 50% English from Kindergarten. There is NO English ONLY option in English schools. English schools have gone above and beyond their call of duty in implementing this curriculum. Children for the most part ARE bilingual by the time they graduate elementary school. This curriculum has been in place for approximately 20 years...In high school they can either enrol in English, Immersion or the International program. English meets the criteria set out by the Minister of education in terms of hours practiced in French, Immersion is almost 50/50, in that the students go beyone the regular hours outlined by the Minister of education and the International would be your 60/40 (as I've indicated at the elementary level) and ON TOP OF the 60/40, they learn a 3rd language. What is the problem????
"Well, yes, but how come you don’t rail against the english who won’t learn french?"
What is there to "rail against"? As you see above, our children are becoming more and more bilingual and have been doing so for oh, at least the past 20yrs...This is evolution Jean...hop on board & give it a try!
Just to add to my comment, this type of program is being mirrored in the rest of Canada as well as around the world for teaching two languages concurrently.
Also, your comment regarding immigrants is moot as we all know that here in Quebec, they are obligated BY LAW, to attend French schools. So, WHO is forcing them to learn a language in Quebec? Hmmmm seems it is not the English. But then again this great conspiracy we have against you, of course we are taking them into our basements and forcing them to learn our language...I think you have a bit of an overactive imagination...
Once you remove all the fluff from the above statement, it merely says "french people in Québec ought to speak english". I could add "because the english are too stupid to learn french", but since I’m such a nice, tolerant, open-minded guy, I won’t…
Of course, because, heaven forbids that the english would learn french.
Yes you do:
ucky Fried ick* is an US business. It sells some stuff described as "fried chicken", presumably following a recipe from Kentucky; it has chosen to identify itself by a very terse, descriptive name (instead of calling itself something wonky like "Bazzo", "Chicken Gong" or "The International House of Flattened Chicken". It would be preposterous to assume that everyone would know that "chicken" means "poulet", so it is only natural that the descriptive english name would be changed to a french descriptive name. There is nothing stupid with that, and that colonel Sanders did it is a good point for him (although it’s not for his chicken).
Likewise for "Eaton’s", which, properly translated, means "chez Eaton". That apostrophe-s flies in the face of politeness, and when politeness has not been granted for more than two centuries, it’s only normal that people’s patience starts to grow thin.
That’s shoving down your language down your throats. That, we can handle. But that it sends immigrants the signal that they can expect to live here without knowing french is not right. Hence law 101 to make sure it won’t happen.
Oxdung. It’s like accepting an elephant and a groundhog "in equal harmony". The elephant will eventually step on the groundhog.
Well, that’s what canada has been working hard at. Si c’est bon pour pitou, c’est bon pour minou, non? What is good for the goose is good for the gander. What canada has extra for it to be able to do it but not Québec???
Well, last time we tried to, we encountered major interference from canada who wanted badly to keep us in. So we clearly bring something to canada that is not adequately compensensated for.
I don’t care; it’s totally besides the point. It’s not the english in Québec who are the problem, it’s those who insist upon turning the immigrants english. Which is all what law 101 is about.
Again, it’s not against against the West-Island ghettoists, but against those who come here, live for 7 years and haven’t learned a word of french.
So why are there so many canadians who won’t learn french upon moving here? I’ll look pretty stupid if I moved to Tonronto without knowing any english, no? So why do canadians expect to do the same opposite thing in Montréal???
Well, my overactive imagination has been undoubtely spurned by the fact that it’s harder and harder to get service in french in Montréal.
* With apologies to National Lampoon magazine who published a b0rk3d KFC sign with some lights out.
Sadly Line;
You are wasting your breath with good ol Jeanny boy. He's heard ALL the facts and truth a thousand times. He just ignores it - and contiues with the same old, same old.
Frankly, I'm beginning to think - he must very just a very. very lonely man, with nothing else to do. I'm not surprised. It's not easy finding Hitler admirers in Montreal. Then again he could try one of the the German clubs.. A little bird (one of the members) told me ( a few years ago) that there is a little group of Heiler's that exist... that not even most German Montrealer's know about.. But then again... they don't speak fluent Quebecois French. But they sure as hell speak German and English and a number of them speak French from France..
Your facts don’t jive with the reality of the Universe. You are just pissed to have to learn french in order to live here.
Feh. Look at the characteristic sleazy smear. Everyday you convince me more and more that you are of bad faith, that you are not interested in justice but only of your own interest, at the exclusion of others, all this hidden under a veneer of respectability. Which is typical for an anglo-saxon bourgeois, you know, those types who do nothing else but plunder the Earth. Bah! With the current collapse of the economic system, you* will soon rest at the bottom of the garbage heap of History.
* This is a plural "you" — english is a very coarse language; at least, in french, we have more specific forms of "you".
Jean...makeing a statement like "its getting harder and harder to get service in French in Montreal" is so dishonest it just proves you'll tell any lie you can think of to try and make your point......all you've managed to do is prove you are a liar and a troll.
Jean,
You fail to address that the majority of English Quebecers are in fact bilingual! That was my point, I'd say approximately 80% if not higher are bilingual. As for forcing people to turn to English, as I've pointed out, even if we wanted to recruit them to English, how the f$#k is that possible when they are obligated BY LAW to attend French schools and how is it that the majority of immigrants attend French schools? Sources please, I'd love to see them!
And Becks you're right, he is a liar and a troll. He still lives in the 1800's! I think all of us should just ignore him.
I provide viable sources etc...however, I've yet to see where he provides viable sources with links etc...telling us that Anglophones are "recruiting" immigrants to learn English. Fact has it that once immigrants who "thought" they could learn English in Quebec, find out they are obligated by law to attend to French schools, they move to other Canadian provinces that's all. So how are we recruiting them?
As for not being served in French in Montreal, I think Jean just lives in his cave and doesn't get out much as I live in Montreal and can honestly say (since I speak French when I am out), that I definitely have NO problems obtaining service in French! And if I were him, move on to another store if that's the case (but somehow I doubt it). However, if he is referring to some Anglophones who have accents whilst speaking French and HE doesn't like it, well then, just shows his ignorance and prejudice even more.
Once again Jean, to lend to your crediblity, PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCES W/LINKS THANKS!
Don't worry Line, not only does Jean lack credibility and has no statistics to back himself up - he apparently can't do math correctly either.
"If someone asks to be served in their language as they’re having difficulty, then you simply switch to their language of choice and help them make a decision since you should be efficient in both languages."
[Of course, because, heaven forbids that the english would learn french. - Jean]
I guess when I said the word equality or equal this apparently meant no French to Jean. Even when I clearly said that both languages have the same value and should be treated as equals this means no french and only english to Jean. He must have a voice telling him things in his head or else he should go to a dictionary or his favorite wikipedia quotes and find out that equality doesn't give an advantage to anyone as things are treated equally. I know that's a tough pill for Jean to swallow cause in his mind equality means "wipe out the french" apparently.
"The difference comes that I don’t force my language on others"
[Yes you do: - Jean]
Umm, no I don't. If anyone does it's you who thinks the word equal somehow = no more french in Quebec. Go grab a math book and look up how an "=" sign is described and how it works in mathematics as I think you could use a refresher course.
Line,,
Clifford Lincoln and his colleagues were spot on when they stated:
“The insane have taken over the asylum.”
Therefore, line, one cannot expect what makes perfect sense to the sane... to make sense to ones whose state of mind is questionable.
And it is not mine.
You fail to understand that I am railing against those who come to live here and who do not learn french.
By posting english signs. This tells immigrants that they don’t really have to learn french, they can go by with english only.
Until we took the radical measures of law 101 to force immigrants to learn french, the immigrants were automatically anglicized, in order to minorize us.
Sure, here is the source: just go on Ste-Catherine and go in stores. You'll be surprised at the number of people who work there and who don’t speak french. Or for better results, you can go in the many ethnic ghettoes of Côte-St-Luc, Montréal-Ouest Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, Westmount, (I don’t list Hampstead, because those douchebags have completely outlawed commercial establishments) Mont-Royal, Snowdon, Côte-des-Neiges, Park-Extension, St-Léonard and see how you can’t get service in french.
And that’s what it means to the english. Why learn french when the french speak english? Yes all languages are equal, but english is more equal than others…
The english cannot stomach being an actual minority.
All the arguments presented by the english eventually boils down to "why learn french then the french learn english?". And you can say that we are lunatics who took over the asylum, that we don’t have our facts straight, yadda, yadda, yadda all you want, it always finally boils down to that.
Like I asked Jean, how are we recruiting immigrants to learn English when they are obligated BY LAW to attend French schools? I hardly see signs in English in Montreal and if I do, they conform to the law in that English is smaller than French. As I've also mentioned there are studies indicating immigrants are becoming more and more French.
As for your sources, they again are moot, I work around those areas and still fail to have problems obtaining services in French.
I've been to St-Catherine street plenty of times and have always been served in French and not english. I think Jean always forgets to realize that the majority of the ones that do speak english aren't even from Quebec and are simply looking for a part time job while they study at either Concordia or Mcgill University. A large majority of which come from the United States or other parts of Ontario or Canada in order to study and chose these institutions because of their educational reputation being the most important criteria. A friend of mine came here to Concordia after going to Mcgill because of the music program at the school as their teacher had left Vancouver to come to Montreal. These people don't want to spend their lives in this province but while here they try to earn a living and contribute to the economy.
I also find it funny how these establishments that do have English signs or english speaking staff contribute more to this economy then the ones that don't. I'm sure that the French could complain all that they want to and are free to shop elsewhere but I don't see them up in arms when a store such as Ben and Jerry's from Vermont, USA gives out free scoops of ice cream in April and there's a line around the block to get free ice cream. I guess there should also be protests outside of the Apple store when all those young Francophones rebel while using appplications such as Google and Facebook that are all in english. How about the band Simple Plan? By your judgement this band should be banned from singing in English in Quebec yet they're now a famous band for singing in English. Funny how they're now rich rockstars when if they simply sang in French they'd still be playing at some local bar for 100$ a night. All of these establishments could leave along with the jobs that they provide and it would be fun to see the results. Actually, we're already seeing the results when you take a look at the amount of vacant lots downtown that are sitting and rotting with no jobs of any kind in them. I'm sure that Jean would also cry over the UFC event that came in April and contributed over 5 million dollars to Quebec's economy when the majority of the fans weren't even from Quebec but other parts of Canada.
UFC 100 was last Saturday and the French Canadian superstar George-St-Pierre's training staff spoke to him in English in every round and I didn't see GSP demanding that they spoke French to him. GSP has been a success story in both Quebec and Canada and I don't see the rest of Canada showing any disrespect to GSP as he's had plenty of marketing support and accolades from everyone in Canada including his own clothing line in Quebec. He's been able to promote himself locally in Quebec amongst his Francophone peers and been able to market himself outside Quebec by appearing on various Canadian programs and media outlets.
Also, don't forget that Just for Laughs is coming up. I'm sure that Jean should cry about the English speaking comedians that come to this city to perform and stage a protest outside the events if he feels so deeply about it. I know he won't and comedians such as Bill Cosby, John Cleese and others will help to provide tons of money to this province's economy while Jean pockets the money on his municipal services that he receives from his town and his province and will find the time to complain about that while at the same time pocketing in money of which he contributed nothing towards.
There's nothing I can't stand more than a hypocrite. If you really want to keep this province French only then stop cashing your cheques from the Canadian government and stop going to Canadian or American establishments that have tried to enter Quebec in order to provide jobs for the citizens of this province. If you think that laws demand that businesses be required to be in French but are free to do what they will as a business then what would happen if they didn't comply? What if they all said one day that they had it and were fed up with your bullshit and told you to go F yourself? I have a feeling that St-Catherine street would be pretty quiet and would be a ghost town just as you would want it. I hope you have a plan to add over 1000 new stores along St-Catherine street when that day comes.
***Newsflash****
The English are the MAJORITY in Canada.
I think we should leave Didi's comment as the final one. No use wasting time with someone who wants to destroy one of the best countries in the world for his own personal gain. I say at this point that silence is golden because if you feed the wrong scenario to people like Jean they'll just try to twist the words around for their own personal agenda. It's like the paparazzi where it's better to just say nothing and not feed the media machine. Not worth giving these people the time of day to feed their garbage to us.
Much as I don't agree with Quebec independence, it's overly dramatic to say that it will "destroy" Canada. It will split it up, and will probably negatively affect francophones outside Quebec, at least in the long run. Canada will not cease to exist without Quebec. Its people will not be eradicated if Quebec becomes independent.
As for the meta discussion of this thread, it should have been over months ago, but it only takes two people to keep wanting the last word.
By being more than 200 million strong against our paltry 7 million? Being outnumbered than that, we have to take pretty active measures just to counter the sheer mass that surrounds us.
Yes, but those immigrants who become more and more french are committing themselves to Québec; the problem is those who commit themselves to north America (see above).
Why are there two english universities in Montréal? One would think that students admitted to those universities have a minimum of smartness; why do they seem to expect that they can live in english in the world’s second largest french city? Why does it seems like it a display of not very much smartness???
Ah. So, being english is more better for the Economy. Okay. Speak white, eh?
Aaah, now I understand why Mordechaï Richler was bitching against law 101: by compelling him to be french, it would mean that he’d have less money, and money is very important for jews. (Funny that the readers will feel that I am racist, but Chris is not…)
The cheques we get from the canadian government were paid for by our tax money. As long as we are within Canada and we pay taxes and vote in federal elections, we are pretty well entitled to get those cheques.
Now who is the hypocrite? The one who cashes his cheques, or the one who says that citizenship has two tiers: those who hare happy being canadians, and those who are not (and whose attempts to stop being canadians are thwarted by canadians)???
Bye! Bye! We surely will enjoy waving our kerchiefs along the 401!
Oh, in case you haven’t noticed, this is not the 70’s anymore where all the english had to do to put the french back in line was to threaten to leave. Now we know we are perfectly able to run our country ourselves, we don’t need the english to do it, so if you want to leave, well, leave and good riddance! Have fun trying to compete in Markham or Don Mills to pay for your $512,000 house and your 60 mile commute.
Ste-Catherine is pretty quiet and looks a ghost town precisely in it’s most english section, right next to the old Forum (it’s just starting to pick-up, thanks to the “new Chinatown”). Whoops! Seems the english aren’t that up to the task when it comes to run their sacrosanct Economy…
On the other hand, go look at Ste-Catherine east of Berri, (very far from the english) and it is so thriving that they made it into a pedestrian mall.
You just proven that you are one of those typical die-hard anti-french rhodesian so full of your 70’s prejudices against the french.
Irrelevant. The french are the MAJORITY in Québec, and the Constitution clearly says that language is a provincial issue.
So, it’s like saying that black-haired people are a majority in Africa, it means nothing at all.
Ooooh. Why would I benefit from Québec no longer being in Canada? Because Canada takes advantage of us? No wonder why you want to keep the best country (for you) intact, because you benefit more from us than we do from you.
Ah. So if you extract the true meaning of words, you are twisting the words… Well, it’s not my fault if you are so shallow that you give away your deepest thought in what you write.
Loose lips sink ships, eh?
Well, we don’t really care about the french out of Québec; they have repeatedly stabbed us in the back, and are too eager to please the english, still hoping that begging will give them more than the crumbs they have.
Here is the real reason why it is still going on… :) :) :)
[...] reading several pages of comments on this posting, I'm taking a stab at helping Canadian Unity on my beloved country's birthday month. [...]
"Well, we don’t really care about the french out of Québec;"
You don't care about anyting other than yourself as any other parasite. You don't even care about your province with your ill fated logic and love of your silly language which is in decline worldwide.
YOU ARE A LOSER...YOU LOST ON THE PLAINS, YOU WILL LOSE IN CANADA. AND THE BIGGEST LOSER IS WHEN YOU SEPARATE. LOOOOSSSER, QUE VOUS ETES.
Now settle down and go out for a nice bowl of gris et pomme de terre...soul food for you.
a plus tard a toi (the loser).
As an attempt to move away from the endless flame war, how about some predictions on how the Supreme Court will rule on Law 104? Weren't they supposed to rule on it back in March? Here's what I think will most likely happen: "We the Court have deemed this legislation to be unconstitutional. However, due to Quebec's special unique status, the law shall be allowed to stand." And less likely, they might strike it down outright. Should that happen I'll start the stopwatch on my iPod Touch and see how long it takes Charest to invoke Section 33.
You expect me to respond to that pile of poppycock?
Looks like you jumped the shark…
Oh, the sweet irony of the “nothwistanding” clause, which was put in the charter at the insistence of the western provinces who wanted to be able to discriminate against the french… Serves them right (and it shows the foresight of the failed businessmen the english elect as politicians).
"You expect me to respond to that pile of poppycock?"
Is 8.5 billion in prequatione poppycock..not chump change to me. Did you not lose the battle on the plains? Go hide your head in the corner in shame.
You have nothing to respond because it is the truth...
How was your gris et "frites".