(Updated with more hints)
This historical figure has his name everywhere. A major thoroughfare and small street in the city (with a park by the same name nearby), a street in Pointe Claire and another in Ste. Geneviève, plus dozens of streets across Quebec. His name also used to be on something that’s been in the news lately.
Who is he?
UPDATE: Dave gets it close enough below, though St. John and St. John the Baptist are two different people. It’s the latter, St. Jean Baptiste, who is the subject of this quiz. It’s the name of a boulevard in the east end (which turns into a short street near the shore), a park, and tiny streets in Ste. Geneviève and Pointe-Claire.
It’s also, according to the Commission de toponymie du Québec, the former name of Amherst St., which a city councillor has proposed be changed because Jeffery Amherst had this thing about being OK with genocide through biological warfare. Amherst and the street names are the subjects of this week’s bluffer’s guide, which points out some of the silliness of the current debate: Amherst never actually used smallpox to kill Indians, and the Jeunes Patriotes are in favour of renaming Amherst but steadfast against renaming the anti-semitic Lionel Groulx.
One factoid that was left out of the article: there are also 14 other geographic entities in Quebec that carry Amherst’s name.
Chris DeWolf also has some thoughts on this subject, and Josianne Massé points to some other reaction in the blogosphere.
Concerning you piece this morning on changing street names (always a bad idea), you might look at the plaque on the north side of Place d’Armes which explains that Champlain killed an Indian chief with his bare hands.
Did Champlain have authority to execute after a fair trial was held? Or didn’t it matter because Champlain and his bretheren considered the Iroquois inferior?
(One you start asking such questions, the slope gets slipperier).
Did I goof? My memory is disappearing these days. Maybe it was De Maisonneuve who killed the Chief at Place d’Armes. Could someone who goes by there look at the plaque on the north side of the square.
Can’t do that, the whole monument is covered up behind barricades for renovation… :(
It’s Paul Chomedey de Maisonneuve.
Sieur de Maisoneuve Paul de Chomedey is my first guess
2) saint jaucques
3) saint michel
Jarry?
I’m going to say Maisonneuve. There’s a Parc Maisonneuve, rue de Maisonneuve downtown, rue Maisonneuve in DDO, and where I live in Gatineau, there is a Maisonneuve, and there used to be others before the municipal mergers, hence giving dozens of streets across Québec
Hmmm, it can’t be René-Lévesque for sure!!! :)
Cartier?
How about St. Jean? There’s a Rue St Jean in the Old Port, a Boulevard St Jean Baptiste (complete with park) in Montreal-Est. Plus Amherst Street, which has definitely been in the news, used to be St Jean.
Hey, I’m Jewish, how am I supposed to keep my saints straight? :-)
Don’t tell me jews don’t have saints???? :) :) :) :)
Gouin?
“Journalism” FAIL. Fagstein, you know better than repeat that typical english-media Québec smear.
Lionel Groulx was no more “antisemite” than the society he was living in. Until the 1960’s, Mc-Gill university (hardly a “pure laine” bastion) had strict jewish quotas; Sir-George Williams university was in fact created so jews could go to university. Plenty of english clubs also had jewish quotas.
The main point I was trying to get across in the first place is that all sorts of historical figures – anglophone and francophone – had politically incorrect views that didn’t seem so bad at the time. From killing Indians to excluding Jews, these views would be universally condemned today but were just part of mainstream political thought in the 17th and 18th centuries.
Actually, McGill had a no Jews allowed policy, as did the city of Hampstead – which is today 80%+ Jewish.
Also remember W. L. M. King’s policy on Jewish immigration: “None is too many!”
Why throw facts around? And the French support Hitler during the second WW. The strongest sentiment of not allowing Jews into Canada was in Quebec (majority French).
Yeah, it makes the english look bad…
Er, France declared was on Germany first. How is that “supporting” Hit… Oooooh! Godwin point!!!
That sentiment was very much echoed by the english, too…
Ok… Naimards reasoning : Lionel Groulx was no more anti-semetic than the society he was liveing in so no reason to change the status-quo….
Amherst was no more anti-aboriginal than the society he was liveing in…therefore as per Naimards reasoning above…no reason to change the status quo.
Perfect! :o)
Poor you, you ran out of apostrophes. Here are some for you: ”’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’”.
Amherst was much more anti-indian than the french who were allied to most of the tribes.
ooooohhh…you are so clever Naimard…you noticed I forgot some apostrophes so you try and use that to distract from the lunacy of your argument
and as far as Amherst being more anti-indian than the French, 1) thats your opinion, 2) irrelavant to the point of this thread and 3) thats just another red-herring to distract from the point
Whatever. “Lunatic” argument you don’t take too much trouble to debunk, though…
Whatever. Again stuck without arguments. Still sinking into irrelevance like on the other threads, eh?
as well as French public schools back in the day, disallowed any Jewish individuals from attending…they were considered protestant in order to be able to attend their schools…what is your point Jean????
My point is that one should check the beam in one’s eye before complaining in the straw in someone else’s eye.
Groulx wasn’t anti-semitic…some of his best friends were Jewish.
I don’t think renaming is necessarily a bad idea, though it incurs costs and “rewriting” history can be problematic, but not all renaming is Stalinist.
Personally, I think changing Amherst St to an ABORIGINAL name, of a people, event (La Grande Paix de 1701)?, or individual, from Aboriginal contemporaries of Wolfe and Montcalm to the late Myra Cree who worked for years at Radio-Canada near the foot of the street would send a powerful message. Especially since the street is located between Montcalm and Wolfe.
I’m not opposed to renaming Lionel-Groulx either. Francophones certainly had no monopoly on antisemitism, but I’m unaware of any Mackenzie-King St here). The worst vortex of reaction in street-name terms on the island remains the intersection of Maurice-Duplessis and Alexis-Carrel in Rivière-des-Prairies. Several streets and buildings named for eugenist, collabo and active antisemite/racist Alexis Carrel have been renamed in France. Between La Grande noirceur and Minuit dans le siècle, that intersection is a sombre one indeed.
I would really like to cast a vote for Maria Gatti for mayor (or at least city council member)
So many people to honour… So little streets…
“Kondiaronk” instead of Christophe-Colomb would rock, yes.
Yeah, so immigrants would not think too much that Montréal is french, eh?
There is a Mackenzie-King park, in Côte-des-Neiges.
So? Herbert George Wells was also an eugenist; eugenism had a wide following a century ago, and people who never could remotely be associated with nazis wholeheartedly embraced it. And no one seems to care about that one either… Granted, it’s very far from Côte-St-Luc…
Jean,
Who are you trying to fool with your agenda?
I am not one to mince words too much. Let me just say that all your focus on Lionel Groulx and your obsession with all things Anglophone or even Jewish related it seems had me curious. I did a simple google search with your name today. It seems you have a tendency to denigrate people who are different than you are.
To me this classifies you as a bigot. I suspected this when I first started chatting with you but looking at your other postings made it clear. To me, xenophobia is both a mental and emotional (spiritual) disease. Reading some of your past comments confirms to me at least that you have a dark heart (and I dont think I am being too harsh here.
Yes Yes of course – Lionel Groulx was not a bigot and neither are you…. sure.
If I seem a bit lighthearted about this – please dont mistake my words for that. It is the attitude of people like you that help to create unnecessary fractures and quarrels in society in my view.
I happen to agree with Becks – that your attempt at cleverness doesnt mask your bigoted agenda….
I am fooling no one, I just make the record straight. You, on the other hand, are attempting to fool the immigrants that the english care about their rights, where they only want them to become english to minorize the french, as it was done until law 101.
I run after bullshit and denounce it. Bullshit is people who think they are superior to other for no other reason because they were born “right”. Now that’s bigotry!!!
I have no heart at all when it comes to bullshit. And bullshit is the english (or the jewish, since you mention it) who think they are superior just because they are english (or jewish, since you mention it) and do their darnest to suppress the french.
And can you blame people for being xenophobic when all you get from strangers is hostility and attempts to get rid of you? Because this is what we got from foreigners for a long time: first, a horde of idiotic english merchants who were too stupid to succeed in their country, then immigrants that were turned into english for the specific purpose of diminishing the number of french people. As much as you say “la-la-la-la-la” it does not make it less true.
And no, I am not xenophobic, I welcome immigration, provided the immigrants are not anglicized. And for this, I think law 101 does not go far enough; the message should be unabashedly unambiguous that immigrants shall never think for one second that it’s okay not to know french. Letting english on commercial, non-cultural signs, even 1/10 the size of french is double-plus ungood.
And you are, given your obvious propensity of thinking yourself superior to other by appearing to be unbigoted. Yet you are because you just parrot the usual Québec-bashing bromides that continuously spew from canada.
The most unnecessary fractures and quarrels are caused by those who cling to bullshit, be it religion (yeah, that includes the jews as well as muslims, christians or pastafarians) or the notion that the english are more equal than the french.
And your attempts to perpetuate english superiority mark you as a true rhodesian. You just cannot bear the fact that the majority of the people here are french.
The english are the most imperialistic people in the history of mankind. Their superiority is so innately ingrown into their culture that despite all their attempts to not show it, it will inevitably raise to the surface as you plainly show it.
And don’t give me that about you not being english, you are obviously embracing their agenda, you obviously went to english school where you were fed their culture, including the imperialism and the alleged superiority.
(the edited version- for nasty words etc..)
Let me just say I am glad you spoke out the way you just did. Everyone on here can see what you really think. No hiding behind fancy words. You showed everyone on here what you truly believe and I think its just great.
Do you want my views on people. No problem. I am an existentialist and a humanist. I am against portraying groups of people based on their linguistic or ethnic background as either good or evil because I feel it is simplistic to do so. I respect all human beings AS INDIVIDUALS unless they give me any reason to believe that they should not be deserving of common courtesy.
Anyone looking at some of your past posts on various websites (I simply googled “Jean Naimard” and “Jews”) on the internet might very well be as shocked to read some of the “things” you write….
What I find most alarming is that you rationalize your “dislike” of whole groups of people.
You have obviously lived a very cushy life, and thus have an idealistic view on people that sorely lacks the insight of having dealt with the nitty-gritty details of life, and you most definitely have had insufficient contact with other cultures (mostly the french) to truly undestand them, nor did you have the mindset wherewithal to do so.
Well, when whole groups of people act consistently in the same manner dictated by their own cultural conventions, why would there be cause for alarm?
Jon,
He trolls all forums presenting his arguments against the English (you know, the ones from Britain, who he seems to think still live on today…lol) however, anything the Francophones were / are against is perfectly justified in his warped mind. I’m surprised no one has banned him from their discussions yet, his ideals etc…are purely emotional and yes he does promote hatred, if you read on other topics Fagstein has posted, as well as on angryfrenchguy.com, he is also anti-semetic as well as a racism against Afro-americans….
Antisemite: someone who criticizes the jews.
In Côte-St-Luc, a lot of women arrested for speeding or running stops end up in the police station, because they go ballistic on the cops with “you do this because I’m jewish”…
Doesn’t work for me, pal; jews can be criticized like anyone else.
You should learn how to read, nowhere did I write anything against blacks. You must think I am because I cite the title of a book that has the dreaded “N” word in it…
Now you go back under your rock, and you get out when you get better “arguments” than that.
Not to belabour a dead horse (sorry for the painfully mixed metaphor) but wanting Lionel-Groulx métro renamed has nothing on earth to do with the fact that Groulx was a francophone, and certainly not with opposition to the concept of Montréal as a cosmopolitan city where French is the common language.
Indeed eugenics was a common persuasion in the early 20th century and many eugenics advocates were very far from any fascist strain (including Tommy Douglas in early years!) But Carrel was a collaborationist – the names of streets and buildings changed in France were due to this, not his simple opinion on something.
And jon, that is very nice of you, but I really don’t want to run for office.
(reply to M. Naimard)
Forgive me but I have chosen to speak plainly here.
You seem very bitter. I guess you feel that your life has been tougher than others. So it kinda gives you the right to make pronouncements on whole groups of people?
I am not familiar with this type of mental reasoning. Though I have met people like you before.
With regard to having dealt with many other cultures; it might surprise you to learn that I am well traveled. In fact I have lived in a number of different cities and have traveled far and wide. I have friends of many different backgrounds. I choose this not because I feel obligated to do so. Rather I enjoy different cultures and I do respect different cultures as well.
The mere fact that you seem to make assumptions about me says much about you Jean. On the other hand; you have already laid your soul bare on the internet so that anyone can see where you are coming from with regards to those peoples you dont care for. If I had said some of the things about other groups that you have posted online – I would be ashamed of myself.
But of course. You are shall I say – wiser than I… You have lived the “nitty gritty” yes… and you know the battle lies with putting other groups down….. Yes its something I have to yet to understand… (sigh).
I will tell you what life has taught me so far. Not to prejudge individuals. To recognize the uniqueness of each person I meet. I am not perfect at doing this but I do recognize (at least) the necessity of it.
When I see someone spew hatred towards an entire group composed of individuals – it does upset me. It upsets me because (as I mentioned earlier) the greatest injustice is to prejudge someone. People are sometimes very complex and the easy (and unthinking) way out is to oversimplify.
It’s really funny. It seems that the politically correct always sides against the french in Québec… Really strange indeed. Many english people profess to know of many other cultures they have briefly met, yet they cannot fathom the single different culture they live within…
It’s like that australian or canadian or british (well, anglo-saxon) moviemaker who lives on the plateau, and does not learn french “because it’s too difficult”, yet who has learned swahili when they made a movie about africans…
Very, very, very strange indeed. I am at a loss to explain the phenomenon… Of course, the logical explanation is that the english viscerally hate the french, but it would not be policitally correct to say so…
I have said them, and I am not ashamed because I said what I think of people. That they are shocked by it is solely their problem.
I don’t prejudge individual people; I prejudge groups of people whose behaviour is pretty well indicated by the measures they collectively take in given circumstances. And what better indication as the whines of nimbyes???
It’s very telling that the person who is always using the words superior,superiority etc., in all these threads is Naimard. Methinks he doth protest too much…..and by doing so he only exposes his own low self-esteem.
It’s very telling that whose who want the status-quo (the rhodesians who don’t want to deal with french) have no counter-arguments…
I notice you didnt address the issue which I had stated earlier that…. “Montreal is a very distinct region in the province of Quebec. Its demographic makeup is very different from the rest of the province. Montreal has a very different cultural makeup throughout compared to that of Lac St Jean -Saguenay or Quebec city for example. And I would say that in Montreal- generally Montrealers are tolerant and progressive (which I like).”
In a free and tolerant society; one should have no major problems with minority communities within a greater majority. You can find Franco Ontarion towns and suburbs in Ontario… Noone makes an issue of it. Now I understand you have issues with the English and other Ghettos in this province – I dont. In fact I think that the non French communities in Montreal should be respected like any other. The fact you want to “crush” these communities says much more about you than these communities that you hate so much.
I think you mistake dislike of Nationalism (and certainly those who espouse extreme Nationalism in Quebec) for a dislike of those who speak French or are French Canadian.
FYI- I love the language; I speak it well and I love the culture as well. I am glad that French thrives in Quebec. I dont like or dislike someone just because they are of an ethnic background or Anglophone or Franocophone. I dont look at people in this way. I expect everyone in this provice to have dignity – to not feel ashamed or uncomfortable with who they are. And I mean everyone.
I do have issues with those people (who out of a sense of nationalism, brainwashing or paranoia – or a comination of all these things) want to put other peoples down actually.
There is nothing to address there.
And none do, because the french are absolutely no threat to the english.
On the other hand, the english minorities in Québec are directly threatening the french by being dominating, imperialistic, unwilling to accept their minority status (they always bring back “we’re the majority in Canada”) and, worst of all, a terrific attractor for immigrants.
French society is not multiculturalist like an english society is; it actually is more like the U.S. with it’s melting pot. We don’t cater to minorities. We don’t have to. We’re french.
The english dislike nationalism when they feel it’s aimed against them. They are very nationalist, like anyone else.
“I am not racist, several of my friends are black, yellow or jewish”.
I want french to thrive in Québec. I dislike groups of people who want to covertly subvert it to minorize it. Those who do so deserve no dignity.
So you should have an issue with the constant attempts by the english to minorize french; if you truly were sincere, you would be a member of $FAVOURITE_NATIONALIST_PARTY.
Yes I read that blog also Jean and you neglect to tell the ending of that story, the individual in question went on to learn French!
Quit your “woe is me” Jean, people just aren’t buying it.
I think you mistake dislike of Nationalism (and certainly those who espouse extreme Nationalism in Quebec) for a dislike of those who speak French or are French Canadian.
FYI- I love the language; I speak it well and I love the culture as well. I am glad that French thrives in Quebec. I dont like or dislike someone just because they are of an ethnic background or Anglophone or Franocophone. I dont look at people in this way. I expect everyone in this provice to have dignity – to not feel ashamed or uncomfortable with who they are. And I mean everyone.
I do have issues with those people (who out of a sense of nationalism, brainwashing or paranoia – or a comination of all these things) want to put other peoples down actually.
Imagine Jean? Nous les “anglo-saxons” (comme tu nous appelle) sont capable de se débrouiller en anglais ainsi qu’en Français. Oui, nous, ceux/celles qui tu accuse d’être fermer???Wow, what a concept huh Jean. Au lieu d’accuser le monde d’être fermer etc…Pourquoi est-ce que tu ne leur aide pas d’apprendre une autre langue? Ca serait plus constructif que leur “blaster” sur l’internet non?
If only it was just a matter of learning a whole language. No, the issue is understanding a wholly different culture. As an example, I betcha you don’t understand why we don’t trust the private sector and why we trust the government.
Jean, we can / do try to embrace the French culture / language etc…It is people like you who constantly are bad-mouthing the English Canadians that make it seem to others we are unwilling to learn…Like I said, teach people instead of blasting them. If they don’t know enough about your culture, TEACH THEM! Don’t keep your mind closed because of some bad experiences. I’ve had them also, by Francophones. I don’t harbour resentment or anger, I can appreciate there is a past between the two communities. However, I can also appreciate in understanding our past we can avoid making the same mistakes and learn from them. This is called having an open mind. I don’t paint all Francophones with the same brush Jean the way you so readily do with any others. I don’t let my negative experiences dictate how I feel about all Francophones. I have plenty of Francophone friend, some even nationalist and we get along just find, the only thing that differs are our views. I don’t hold it against them, the same as they don’t hold my views against me. This is what Quebec society needs. I do appreciate we are a minority here in Quebec, and like Jon mentioned, I speak, read, write French. Heck, I even prefer my hockey on RDS as I find the commentators on any other station lack emotion and enthusiasm. And yes, I even watch TV in French.
Like I said Jean, if you want someone/some people to understand and embrace the culture, teach them instead of blasting them. Once you open your mind and know people are willing to understand you will see how receptive they are to learning.
Funny that 250 years of the english bad-mouthing the french has not prevented (too) many of us to learn the english language/culture, sometimes to the point of totally losing the french.
This is also called remembering History so not to repeat it. If I did not have an open mind, I certainly would not have realized the english’s cultural distaste for government and understood their worship of private entreprise/property (took me 20 years to realize that). I am just appaled at the general closedmindness of the english and their crass unwillingness to learn a culture they are practically immersed in.
What we don’t need is an environment where anyone can expect to live here without knowing french, hence my rabid hostility towards the english.
I ask nothing better than teach, but one quickly tires of trying to teach to a wall, which is all too many english are in terms of learning other cultures, especially their arch-ennemy’s: the french.
(Reply to Jean Naimard)
I really dont think you can blame those who choose not to live in your vision of Quebec. Based on the posts you have left online (not just on this webiste); it is clear to me that your dislike of other groups is visceral (basically of an emotional nature). In fact your views of Jews would be more appropriate in my view on a website that caters to followers of Jean Marie Lepen or the British National Party than to mainstream Quebec society. If anyone has any doubts; they are free to check out your posts as I have done earlier. Nothing you can say will excuse such postings. No amount of blame or rationalizing can excuse such broad and negative generalizations that you hold about groups of people and continue to propogate.
Whatever. You’re welcome to stay in the ruts of political-correctness.